My ongoing internal debate over whether, how and when to use AI as a tool for writing got a real jolt when Tom Hershenson and I were interviewing Andy Hertzfeld for our podcast. Andy is a legendary software wizard. When I got to work with him at General Magic, I was inspired, as a former teacher whose courses lived at the intersection of science and the humanities, by his description of writing code as a form of art. He was a poet, and his code (as described to me by others—I couldn’t read it) had the elegant terseness of a William Carlos Williams or Robert Frost poem, famous for using as little memory as possible and lacking any unnecessary recursions, redundancy or fuzziness.
Tom and I wanted to get Andy’s take on AI and what its rapid adoption in the industry meant for software engineers. I assumed, without evidence, that Andy would be appalled by the invasion of Claude Code, Windsurf, Cursor and the others—soulless machines—into his creative domain. Wouldn’t they sap the experience of writing code of its artistry and erode the skills of programmers?
Boy, was I wrong. You can listen to Andy’s sheer delight in having AI tools that enhance, rather than degrade, his formidable inventiveness. He is happy to offload the drudgery that all coding requires to an AI assistant, which frees him up to be even more creative. The tools let him explore avenues he might not have considered. And being able to set some of the poems he’s written to music—when he had always thought of them as songs but didn’t know how to write the scores—by using Suno has enabled a whole new burst of enjoyment. The interview was a real reset moment.
So—should I give Claude a shot at helping me write? Per my earlier posts, I’m afraid—knowing what a deadline-driven procrastinator I am—that I would become dependent on it and gradually lose whatever skill I have. Deciding how my co-authors, Tom, Tamara and I engage with AI while writing “From Jobs to Musk” has to happen soon. Still on the fence, teetering.
As always, the full uncut video version of our interview is on YouTube; link at the bottom of this page.
Show Notes
Andy Hertzfeld wrote much of the original Macintosh operating system, co-founded General Magic, later worked at Google, and created Folklore.org, the definitive oral history of early Apple. In this 46-minute audio edit, he opens up more candidly than ever about why using AI coding tools and AI music generation feels, in his words, “thrilling” and “like magic” — the same joy he felt writing code as a teenager — while also delivering a clear-eyed reckoning with what went wrong at General Magic, how Apple’s Newton team secretly raced to beat them to market, why he thinks the AI industry “is poisoned by money,” and, in a closing conversation, what it will take for Silicon Valley — and the country — to rediscover its soul.
In This Episode
Why using AI coding tools gives Andy the same thrill he felt as a teenage programmer — “it’s like Magic”
Suno, poetry, and how AI let a lifelong lyricist finally hear his songs
Why Andy trusts Gemini over ChatGPT
Andy’s take on the economics of AI
Andy’s single biggest regret at General Magic — and why simpler beats ambitious
The untold story of how Apple’s Newton team, under John Sculley, secretly raced General Magic to market — with tragic consequences
Andy’s bumper-sticker answer and his Tesla regret
The tech industry’s political turn, and how to find tech’s soul again
The Steve Jobs/Steve Wozniak kindness distinction that still guides him
Timestamps
04:17 - “It’s actually thrilling”: Andy on using AI coding tools
04:51 - Suno, poetry, and rediscovering creative joy through AI music
07:54 - Why Andy trusts Gemini over ChatGPT
12:04 - Is the AI industry idealistic, or “poisoned by money”?
14:57 - Andy’s biggest regret at General Magic
26:10 - The Newton betrayal
38:45 - Andy’s bumper-sticker answer and his Tesla regret
41:04 - Silicon Valley’s political turn, and finding tech’s soul again
43:58 - The Steve Jobs/Steve Wozniak kindness distinction that still guides him
About Andy Hertzfeld
Andy Hertzfeld was a key member of the original Apple Macintosh team, where he wrote much of the system software that defined personal computing. He went on to co-found General Magic, the legendary Silicon Valley startup that envisioned the smartphone 15 years before the iPhone. He later worked at Google, where he contributed to Google+. Hertzfeld is also the creator of Folklore.org, a widely cited living archive of stories from the early days of Apple, and co-author of the book Revolution in the Valley. Now retired, he spends his time on personal creative projects — including AI-assisted music composition through Suno — and remains one of the most respected and beloved figures in Silicon Valley history.
Resources & Links
Andy Hertzfeld on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Hertzfeld
Folklore.org (created by Andy Hertzfeld): https://www.folklore.org
Revolution in the Valley by Andy Hertzfeld: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/revolution-in-the/9780596007195/
